MAC vs. PC

Problems/advice relating to your PC/Mac/Phone/Television/ Satellite TV/DVD/Blu ray......

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russell
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MAC vs. PC

Post by russell »

Are they the same?
http://www.howtogeek.com/195224/macs-ar ... hey-arent/

O.K. Apple MACs look nicer but....

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Allan
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Post by Allan »

Of course its a PC, the term Personal Computer (abbreviated to PC) was coined in the 70s in the era of the Commodore Pet.

The term may have been appropriated by IBM when they launched their PC but that usage really became obsolete a good few years ago.

Macs are clearly personal computers, just dearer and prettier than other makes.
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Post by russell »

You are right of course Allan but I think the point of that article is that Apple computers now use the same components and architecture as the popular Windows/Linux machines (commonly called PCs) so what the higher price pays for is the better aesthetic design.

I remember the Commodore PET well. Our accounts department bought one to run Visicalc and I had to fight to be able to buy one for the electronic lab to do engineering calculations in Basic.

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Post by Maximus »

Ha Ha this old chestnut ! I have Macs, iOS, Android, Linux and Windows boxes and I use all of them at sometime or other - however I tremble with fear when I have to boot up the windows box - viruses, spyware, crappy software, low quality hardware and finish, awful operating system and IE all contribute to a terrible user experience.
Using a Mac is so much more relaxed and friendly and Linux is catching up fast
If you really can't afford the extra £50/year over the 5 year average life of a Mac then go Linux - Windows is for masochists

:twisted:
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Post by Allan »

Maximus wrote:Ha Ha this old chestnut ! I have Macs, iOS, Android, Linux and Windows boxes and I use all of them at sometime or other - however I tremble with fear when I have to boot up the windows box - viruses, spyware, crappy software, low quality hardware and finish, awful operating system and IE all contribute to a terrible user experience.
Using a Mac is so much more relaxed and friendly and Linux is catching up fast
If you really can't afford the extra £50/year over the 5 year average life of a Mac then go Linux - Windows is for masochists

:twisted:
That'll be why Windows only has a 91% share of the desktop market then :)

The discussion wasn't really about operating systems it was about the convergence of Windows PCs and Macs.

The originally quoted article pointed out that you can now run Windows on a Mac. That may well tempt me to buy one, I love Apple's design but resisted in the past because of its proprietary operating system.
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Maximus
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Post by Maximus »

That'll be why Windows only has a 91% share of the desktop market then Smile
well there are many reasons why windows has the majority of the desktop market - but being good isn't one of them :-P

If we are discussing Personal Computers then it is all about the operating system and build quality - the fact they use similar components is largely irrelevant and anyway Macs changed over to Intel processors 8 years ago - have you only just noticed ?
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russell
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Post by russell »

Allan wrote:
That'll be why Windows only has a 91% share of the desktop market then :)
To be fair, that's largely because most people don't realise there is a choice of OS.
That may well tempt me to buy one, I love Apple's design but resisted in the past because of its proprietary operating system.
Good idea. I would dual boot Linux and Windows ( not Windows 8 though!). Linux for general use and Windows for those few programs that won't run under Linux.

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Allan
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Post by Allan »

russell wrote:
Allan wrote:
That'll be why Windows only has a 91% share of the desktop market then :)
To be fair, that's largely because most people don't realise there is a choice of OS.
That may well tempt me to buy one, I love Apple's design but resisted in the past because of its proprietary operating system.
Good idea. I would dual boot Linux and Windows ( not Windows 8 though!). Linux for general use and Windows for those few programs that won't run under Linux.

Russell.
Russell, you use computers for hobbyist reasons, I do too but I also have a mass of business applications that require a Windows environment and by the way, I love Windows 8.1.

To be honest I have dismissed Macs in the past because of their proprietary operating system and no, I didn't know until yesterday that you could run Windows natively on them. Linux is of no interest to me at all.

I don't accept that 9 out of 10 desktop computer users aren't aware there is a choice, but clearly lots of people simply buy what they are used to and that often means the same as they use at work.

Neither Apple Mac, nor Linux systems have made any serious inroads into the business market.

Maximus thinks it is all about the operating system and the build quality but like all products, quality comes at a price. I don't believe anybody buys a personal computer, they buy it for what they can do with it and the fact is you can do more with Windows.

I am a big fan of Apple's design and I am sure their operating system is great for some people but 'Windows knocking' is so last century.
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Post by Maximus »

Alan - serious point, what do you run on your windows 8 that you can't on a Mac ? - I'm genuinely interested to know

I'm not after a big list of PC only software just what you use regularly
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Post by Allan »

Maximus wrote:Alan - serious point, what do you run on your windows 8 that you can't on a Mac ? - I'm genuinely interested to know

I'm not after a big list of PC only software just what you use regularly
I don't claim to be a typical user but on a day to day basis, I constantly use Office 2013, Lync 2013 and Remote Desktop Manager.

At any moment in time my PCs are connected to multiple customers in various parts of the world. I make extensive use of Microsoft Dynamics AX and Visual Studio.

None of my work would be possible using the Mac operating system.

I am quite happy to accept that if I was just web surfing and writing the odd letter or spreadsheet then any operating system would suffice.
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Post by martyn94 »

As has been said, a very old chestnut and one which you cannot approach without a clear idea of what you actually want to do. I switched to a mac round about the low point of Microsoft's fortunes (Windows Vista, anyone?) and have never regretted it. But my needs are very basic, and more than satisfied by a few-year-old Mac Mini. I find that it still does live up to the slogan "it just works". Certainly better than my sister's Windows 7 machine: I spend much more time de-bugging that, down the phone, than I ever do on my own setup.

But it functions as a server as much as anything else nowadays: I very rarely sit in front of it - and when I do, it's mostly for scanning documents or printing.

The story at the beginning of all this is very old news: sure you can run Windows on a Mac, for the last many years, but why on earth bother learning two sets of tricks when neither, at their best, are better than a necessary chore for casual users like me? Let alone triple-booting with some flavour or other of Linux.
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Post by Maximus »

I think a lot of the Mac vs PC (vs Linux) debate comes down to who you want or are forced to support
Microsoft enjoyed a huge and unfair monopoly which it abused until the American government stepped in and basically forced them to help their competitors survive, This is why Apple still lacks the applications for "serious business" even though their hardware is more than capable
The free software and open source phenomenon was largely a reaction to the Microsoft way of doing things, Apple benefitted from this enormously and Linux is almost completely open source
The creativity that came via the open source movement has greatly enhanced computing and many other technological aspects of our lives
I feel for myself that is is important to give respect where it is due so Ill never use Windows when a Mac or Linux box is capable
Alan - I totally understand that you have limited choice available to you, and you probably "just need to get the job done" but I hope that some day the people who write the software you use become more enlightened and become part of the solution not part of the problem
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Post by russell »

Allan wrote: Neither Apple Mac, nor Linux systems have made any serious inroads into the business market.
While that is undoubtedly true for your field of business, it does depend on the business you're considering.

There are more Linux web servers than Windows web servers running the internet. So most businesses do rely on Linux.

A number of big financial organisations are now using Linux in the back office while retaining Windows for the front office for it's familiarity.

Over 90% of supercomputers are running Linux.

At the other end of the scale all Android phones, tablets, TV boxes etc., are running a version of the Ubuntu Linux kernel.

So I don't think Linux is just a hobbyist system.

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Post by Allan »

russell wrote:
Allan wrote: Neither Apple Mac, nor Linux systems have made any serious inroads into the business market.
While that is undoubtedly true for your field of business, it does depend on the business you're considering.

There are more Linux web servers than Windows web servers running the internet. So most businesses do rely on Linux.

A number of big financial organisations are now using Linux in the back office while retaining Windows for the front office for it's familiarity.

Over 90% of supercomputers are running Linux.

At the other end of the scale all Android phones, tablets, TV boxes etc., are running a version of the Ubuntu Linux kernel.

So I don't think Linux is just a hobbyist system.

Russell.
I don't disagree with you Russell but we were discussing personal computers and in that market Linux in all it's flavours has less than 2% share.

Maximus, all the software that I mentioned is written by Microsoft , it isn't forced upon me, it just happens to be the software arena that my business operates in.
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Post by Santiago »

The reason I've used PCs for the last 20 years rather than Macs is that there is a whole wealth of free and cheap software available for Windows that wasn't available for Macs.

I've never quite understood the reason for Linux. Isn't it the Sun operating system made to look like Windows? What are it's advantages today for a PC?

I'm planning to change PCs soon and considering a Mac as one of the things I dislike about Windows is the degradation in performance over time with all the upgrades and updates to the OS and CPU hungry apps like Norton, Chrome, MusicPlayer etc.

I'm just wondering how all my old files will transfer to being used through a Mac. I'm talking Excel, Word, Publisher, various image files. I also run stocktaking and accounting software on the PC. Any advice?
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Post by malcolmcooper »

I'm just wondering how all my old files will transfer to being used through a Mac. I'm talking Excel, Word, Publisher, various image files. I also run stocktaking and accounting software on the PC. Any advice?
All of your files will transfer but there is no way back. Once you've opened your spreadsheets or documents on a Mac, Apple own you from then on.
Malcolm Cooper

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Post by Allan »

Santiago wrote:The reason I've used PCs for the last 20 years rather than Macs is that there is a whole wealth of free and cheap software available for Windows that wasn't available for Macs.

I've never quite understood the reason for Linux. Isn't it the Sun operating system made to look like Windows? What are it's advantages today for a PC?

I'm planning to change PCs soon and considering a Mac as one of the things I dislike about Windows is the degradation in performance over time with all the upgrades and updates to the OS and CPU hungry apps like Norton, Chrome, MusicPlayer etc.

I'm just wondering how all my old files will transfer to being used through a Mac. I'm talking Excel, Word, Publisher, various image files. I also run stocktaking and accounting software on the PC. Any advice?
My advice is don't bother. Macs also have updates to the OS and CPU hungry applications. Word, Excel etc are available on the Mac but you would have to buy the software again and the versions are behind the Windows versions. Your stocktaking and accounting software may not even be available.

MACs are great looking and desirable machines but fairly expensive. I would spend the money on a powerful enough Windows PC so you won't have to worry about it slowing down.

If you were starting from scratch then the advice might be different.

As I said earlier in the thread, I could be tempted to buy a MAC for its looks and quality, but I would run Windows on it.
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Post by Maximus »

All of your files will transfer but there is no way back. Once you've opened your spreadsheets or documents on a Mac, Apple own you from then on.
I'm sorry but that is not true, it all depends on which applications you choose to use and their individual capabilities re importing and exporting various file formats
for example many Mac users no longer use Microsoft Office as there are very good free alternatives like Libreoffice which will generally open PC office files although some formatting options and macros may cause problems

Image files are no problem for Macs as they were the computers of choice for the graphic design & DTP industries

Santiagos Accounting /Stocktaking software may or may not be available for the Mac depending on the developer however you could run it in emulation / virtualisation software, re boot the Mac as a windows box or find an alternative programme

In general it is Windows that doesn't want to be compatible with the rest of the world because it enjoyed a monopoly for so long - hopefully those days are over

It is likely that changing to a Mac will involve extra work initially though IMO you will be better off in the long term
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Post by Maximus »

As I said earlier in the thread, I could be tempted to buy a MAC for its looks and quality, but I would run Windows on it.
Alan would buy a Mercedes Benz but he would put his Ford Focus wheels and engine on it

:lol:

ducks
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Post by martyn94 »

Having chimed in earlier as a Mac user, I have to say that I very much agree with Allan, though perhaps from a rather different perspective. I shifted to a Mac because I absolutely hate spending more time than I need on the day-to-day business of keeping the machines going, and had absolutely no investment in Windows-specific software which I would have had to spend time and money replacing in a Mac environment (or failing to). On that basis, the very limited frictional costs (for me) have been well repaid by ease of use since.

But I would never have contemplated changing had I been a heavy user of eg accounting or stocktaking software, or even Office: I am sure there are Mac equivalents - but Windows (and Windows machines) were never so bad, for me, as to justify trying to find them, migrate, and learn to use them. Sure, they silt up and slow down over time, or used to: but if all else fails it's not too hard just to re-install the OS, or even everything, every year or two. And it would have seemed masochistic to buy a Mac and then pay again for a licence to run Windows on it.

And I am certainly not principled enough to switch just because Microsoft have, in the past, been lazy monopolists.

You don't get this sort of debate over other sorts of domestic appliances, like fridges or washing machines. Mostly, I think, because the people who know most and care most - and give advice with the greatest good will in the world - sometimes overlook the fact that they are just domestic appliances for many of us.
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Post by Santiago »

OK, so Windows it will be. Any advantage in having a Linux machine? Personally I find the Microsoft OS a lot more reliable than it used to be and I can leave the PC running for days before something clogs up, other than Chrome, which has become a pain in the ass. Wants me to log in to my google account and doesn't close down cleanly leaving massive ghosts in the memory.
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Post by Allan »

Maximus wrote:
As I said earlier in the thread, I could be tempted to buy a MAC for its looks and quality, but I would run Windows on it.
Alan would buy a Mercedes Benz but he would put his Ford Focus wheels and engine on it

:lol:

ducks
Of course not, they wouldn't be compatible just like MACs and an awful lot of software.

I don't understand why you think Windows doesn't want to be compatible with the rest of the world. Who exactly do you want them to be compatible with? When their nearest competitor only has about 4% of the market.

You seem to choose a computer because of its operating system rather that what you can do with it. Microsoft has provided software for Macs for over 30 years and has produced Mac versions of its major desktop applications. What more would you like them to do?

Of course there is a place in the world for Macs and they have a happy and loyal following but don't condemn Windows just because Microsoft is succesful
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Post by Maximus »

but don't condemn Windows just because Microsoft is succesful
<Ha ha this is good stuff>

Alan ! the Mafia is successful, ISIS is successful, Goldman Sachs is successful - the key point is how that success is achieved

If it wasn't for the open source anti Microsoft movement you would have no alternatives to Windows - no linux based Android, no iTunes, iPad, iPod no smartphones no CMS websites etc etc, everything would have been multi hundred ££ software that needs paid upgrades every 6 months and the whole computer scene would have stagnated as the vested interests coined it in

As an alternative 4% (which I don't really accept) the "other" computing platforms have achieved a hell of a lot, and you owe them respect for that at least

When you look at where computing is going I don't see a bright future for Microsoft - they are not big in smartphones or tablets they have no set top boxes, they are reviled by web designers (IE, asp etc) and have generally been rejected by the younger generation who don't sit in front of desktops like us old duffers (other than to play games maybe)

If you are happy with your expensive virus ridden malware then I guess there is not much I can do about it, but don't knock the competition just 'cus it is more experimental and has a smaller user base
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Post by russell »

Santiago wrote: I've never quite understood the reason for Linux. Isn't it the Sun operating system made to look like Windows? What are it's advantages today for a PC?
Linux is not the Sun system made to look like Windows.

Linux, has its roots in the multi user operating system, UNIX which was developed by AT & T in the early seventies. In the early nineties Linus Torvalds wrote an operating system called Freax which was later released under a public licence making it available free for anyone to use and became known as Linux. Strictly speaking "Linux" only refers to the core operating system, the Kernel but popularly has come to mean any distribution containing the kernel and and various elements such as the graphical user interface.

Advantages over windows:

Probably top of the list is robustness and security. Hence it's use in everything from GPS units to supercomputers. When I was in business I had a Linux server running for over two years without needing to reboot. There is even a version released by the US Department of Defence which is publicly released and they should know about security. There is (almost) no risk of viruses.

While regular updates are released they do not take over your computer in the way that Windows updates do. You can carry on working while updates are in progress and there is no need to reboot after updates or installing new programs.

Linux distributions are free and most of the software you are likely to need comes included or can be downloaded free from a repository. For example the full version of Microsoft Office costs about £350 while Libreoffice is included in most distributions (including the US DOD version) and is free. Other free software includes GIMP, a full featured Photoshop replacement, GNUCASH, a personal and small business accounts package, desktop publishing, web authoring, computer aided design, machine control, etc.

There is also commercial software available for large businesses (accounts, sales, stock control, manufacturing)

Support from a worldwide community, not a single company.

Lots more besides but I'd better stop there.

Russell.
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Post by martyn94 »

As I think I said above, people don't get as passionate as russell and Maximus have done about vacuum cleaners. If you want passion and a pure heart and a worldwide community (but with an experimental and smaller user base) go with them. If you want to clean your carpet, go with Hoover.
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Post by Allan »

Maximus wrote:
If you are happy with your expensive virus ridden malware then I guess there is not much I can do about it, but don't knock the competition just 'cus it is more experimental and has a smaller user base
It seems to me that you are the one knocking the competition. I just don't subscribe to this Satanic Microsoft image that you seek to convey nor do I accept that the desktop software used by a huge majority is expensive Malware. There is clearly something of the rebel in you but without the success of commercial companies there would be nothing to rebel against.

Microsoft got big by being good at what they do and being commercial. Apple, Sun, Google have all done the same. I have never suggested that other companies don't have brilliant products and been responsible for some great innovations. It is true that there is some great free application software although of course a lot of it wouldn't exist if there wasn't a successful commercial product to emulate.

You continually talk about respect but why not show some respect to all the companies that built the computer industry including the succesful ones.

You could even spell my name correctly.
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Post by Maximus »

I like your hoover analogy Martyn but it rather proves my point

Apple from the early days foresaw the computer evolving into an appliance (the Lisa and Apple 2) Microsoft has been playing catchup ever since
Imagine a world where there was only one brand of vacuum cleaner? if Microsoft made a vac then you would buy it in lots of bits that wouldn't fit together well and the bags would cost £600 each, it would then run round your house looking for personal information to sell, then breakdown and need replacing every 2 years

Windows PC's suit authoritarian types like Allan because they like to be told what to do and what to pay and they don't like change or having to learn something new

Ill admit to being a rebel - rebels change the world and you can see that change in all the new devices on the market

I dare to go bag-less ! but do you ?

Max
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Post by Santiago »

My view is that Apple is a company that tries to control people's purchasing decisions much more than Microsoft. As I said earlier my main reason for using a MS PC rather than a Mac has always been the plethora of software that was developed for MS. Also Microsoft themselves had much better office applications than Apple.

I've avoided Apple, including their phones, pads and TV applications because they don't work with other equipment. I also don;t want to have to buy all my music and videos from the Apple store.

So I find it amazing that people think MS is the closed-shop operating system and Apple is open.

Do I have a choice of buying a Mac made by Toshiba, Sony or HP?
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Post by Maximus »

Very effective this PC propaganda - do people really think you have to get all your music and videos from Apple ?

that is completely untrue

I do have reservations about the way Apple have conducted business, especially in the recent past, hence my interest in Linux, I try to remain as open minded as I can and like I said I even boot up Windows occasionally

When you have had experience of all three operating systems I think it gives you a better perspective on the strengths and weaknesses of each system

I could give a more thorough breakdown if it would be helpful - though I haven't the time just at this moment
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Post by martyn94 »

Maximus wrote:I like your hoover analogy Martyn but it rather proves my point


I dare to go bag-less ! but do you ?

Max
I simply don't care enough about vacuum cleaners to bother one way or the other. My attitude to computers is much the same, with the exception that what I already have - in the way of apps, files and very limited expertise - is a major influence on what I will have in future. It is mildly annoying, in a theoretical way, to be the captive of any firm for anything - but not enough to make me neglect my own convenience.
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