A place to discuss Brexit.
- Gus Morris
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A place to discuss Brexit.
I'm probably not alone in taking a keen interest in Brexit. I've looked at Facebook and found groups devoted to the subject. But they are chaotic. Stuff comes and goes at lightning speed. Serious comment often swamped by hysteria. More than a whiff of what looks suspiciously like fake news.
Does anybody know of a FB group or a forum where these very important issues are debated in a relatively calm environment?
I know I'm clutching at straws but it's worth a try.
Gus
Does anybody know of a FB group or a forum where these very important issues are debated in a relatively calm environment?
I know I'm clutching at straws but it's worth a try.
Gus
- Kate
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Re: A place to discuss Brexit.
.Gus Morris wrote:I'm probably not alone in taking a keen interest in Brexit. I've looked at Facebook and found groups devoted to the subject. But they are chaotic. Stuff comes and goes at lightning speed. Serious comment often swamped by hysteria. More than a whiff of what looks suspiciously like fake news.
Does anybody know of a FB group or a forum where these very important issues are debated in a relatively calm environment?
I know I'm clutching at straws but it's worth a try.
Gus
What's to debate: Brexit means Brexit and the people have spoken.
You can now split up into discussion groups (relatively calmly) to decide whether that was meant in the first second or third degree. I would choose the third degree except that I've mislaid my brass knuckles.
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Discussions can take different routes:
Mutual venting - no outcome save the satisfaction of having said it
Persuasion at any cost - often surrendering normal standards of ethics for the person speaking (on all sides).
Give and Take, with mistakes on the way and accepted but move on.
That third type of discussion has been missing amongst us the chattering classes. That spirit should return.
Mutual venting - no outcome save the satisfaction of having said it
Persuasion at any cost - often surrendering normal standards of ethics for the person speaking (on all sides).
Give and Take, with mistakes on the way and accepted but move on.
That third type of discussion has been missing amongst us the chattering classes. That spirit should return.
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- Gus Morris
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A couple of points.
I think Owens88 hits the nail on the head.
I also appreciate Kate’s suggestion that we could debate Brexit on here. But it’s a toxic subject, like “Get ready for Marineâ€. Probably best avoided.
In any event what I’m looking for is somewhere with a pan-European audience. I want to hear the views of people living throughout the EU. A-D speaks mainly to those of us who have the good fortune to live in the PO.
Hope this does not sound too patronising. The search goes on!
Gus
I think Owens88 hits the nail on the head.
I also appreciate Kate’s suggestion that we could debate Brexit on here. But it’s a toxic subject, like “Get ready for Marineâ€. Probably best avoided.
In any event what I’m looking for is somewhere with a pan-European audience. I want to hear the views of people living throughout the EU. A-D speaks mainly to those of us who have the good fortune to live in the PO.
Hope this does not sound too patronising. The search goes on!
Gus
- russell
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This could be a hopeful sign for those of us living in France:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator
Russell
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator
Russell
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I take your point. But I can't seriously think that our right of residence is seriously at stake in any case (why would they want to do without my taxes?). It's the grittier stuff like health cover, or even air routes for some of us, which is going to matter. We have had endless false, or at least very premature, news over Brexit in the last few months, so I'm inclined to tune out for a while. The presidentials here will be quite nail-biting enough.russell wrote:This could be a hopeful sign for those of us living in France:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... negotiator
Russell
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agree!Owens88 wrote:Discussions can take different routes:
Mutual venting - no outcome save the satisfaction of having said it
Persuasion at any cost - often surrendering normal standards of ethics for the person speaking (on all sides).
Give and Take, with mistakes on the way and accepted but move on.
That third type of discussion has been missing amongst us the chattering classes. That spirit should return.
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Brexit Agree to Disagree
We ought be able to discuss this without ranker. I signed up to a couple of the pan european groups but unless you're willing to stay on line 24/7 few of the discussions make little sense . Pan European : we're not a homogenous group within France or even the PO . At the moment the divide is between those EU citizens who live in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU. And the UK Government plans to use the former as a 'bargainning chip', but bargainning for what? For us to keep our EU rights or a free trade deal . It's right some of us could qualify for permanent residence :
EU website states:- If you have resided legally for an uninterrupted period of five years in an EU country, you can apply to become a long-term resident. You must demonstrate that you have:
Stable and sufficient financial resources;
Health insurance.
And:- Minimum income for self employed : sufficient financial resources obtained from your activity (at least equivalent to the minimum wage – SMIC for the residence permit with the mention “entrepreneur – liberal professionâ€);
Me: Uninterruped 5 years yes, pension stable income, borderline SMIC, private health insurance out of the question. Wouldn't qualify.
Will France (ditto Spain) agree to continue rights to 'Assurance Maladie' for a lot of UK pensioners while the UK just has to pick up the NI bills for the young French living and working in the UK. Or will the UK agree to reimburse the 'Assurance Maladie' . I wouldn't put my money on either happening.
I don't have much confidence in the UK reaching an agreement that will be OK for me , (I'm not sure why but the 'Dangerous Dogs Act' comes to mind), but I don't expect that the French will rush to ask me to leave either.
Under 'Brexit means' there are some reasonable good podcasts at theguardian.com/podcasts/
EU website states:- If you have resided legally for an uninterrupted period of five years in an EU country, you can apply to become a long-term resident. You must demonstrate that you have:
Stable and sufficient financial resources;
Health insurance.
And:- Minimum income for self employed : sufficient financial resources obtained from your activity (at least equivalent to the minimum wage – SMIC for the residence permit with the mention “entrepreneur – liberal professionâ€);
Me: Uninterruped 5 years yes, pension stable income, borderline SMIC, private health insurance out of the question. Wouldn't qualify.
Will France (ditto Spain) agree to continue rights to 'Assurance Maladie' for a lot of UK pensioners while the UK just has to pick up the NI bills for the young French living and working in the UK. Or will the UK agree to reimburse the 'Assurance Maladie' . I wouldn't put my money on either happening.
I don't have much confidence in the UK reaching an agreement that will be OK for me , (I'm not sure why but the 'Dangerous Dogs Act' comes to mind), but I don't expect that the French will rush to ask me to leave either.
Under 'Brexit means' there are some reasonable good podcasts at theguardian.com/podcasts/
- Santiago
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From a British resident in France, my problems with Brexit are that it risks affecting my children's right to education here, my right to equality in the world I work in (viticulture/agriculture) when it comes to basic operations, grants, membership of groups, access to courses and advice.
I'm also concerned about our ability to move freely within the EU, whether that is simply a business trip, a period of study or the ability to invest in property. I'm also worried that British students and workers will not easily be able to come to work with me.
Finally, I think the departure of the UK from the single market and customs union will make it a lot harder for me to sell wine to the one market where I have an advantage over the competition. I see the British wine trade being taken over by big multinationals who don't mind extra paperwork and bureaucracy because they deal in millions of bottles of the same type.
Those are my personal issues. But it goes deeper than that. I'm philosophically against the idea of nationalism, protectionism and the xenophobia that is behind the Brexit vote.
So which do we want to discuss? Practical issues of fundamental mindsets?
I'm also concerned about our ability to move freely within the EU, whether that is simply a business trip, a period of study or the ability to invest in property. I'm also worried that British students and workers will not easily be able to come to work with me.
Finally, I think the departure of the UK from the single market and customs union will make it a lot harder for me to sell wine to the one market where I have an advantage over the competition. I see the British wine trade being taken over by big multinationals who don't mind extra paperwork and bureaucracy because they deal in millions of bottles of the same type.
Those are my personal issues. But it goes deeper than that. I'm philosophically against the idea of nationalism, protectionism and the xenophobia that is behind the Brexit vote.
So which do we want to discuss? Practical issues of fundamental mindsets?
Domaine Treloar - Vineyard and Winery - www.domainetreloar.com - 04 68 95 02 29
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'I'm philosophically against the idea of nationalism, protectionism and the xenophobia that is behind the Brexit vote.' Me to .
'So which do we want to discuss? Practical issues of(or?) fundamental mindsets?' Why not both ?
link to podcast: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/se ... exit-means
'So which do we want to discuss? Practical issues of(or?) fundamental mindsets?' Why not both ?
link to podcast: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/se ... exit-means
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FWIW
I had a Rose tinted view of the EEC and as a youn person I could think liberally about a United Ireland, Regionalisation within UK and Europe (Catalunia anyone ? ) and even a common defense force removing the need for Nationalist Armies.
The vote was about the EU, not Europe, and I strongly oppose the progression toward powers for unelected people and the money trough that goes with it.
I also have some roots in Economics and I think that the good ol boys of a century ago also had Rose-tinted glasses. In practice, standard theories of Macroeconomics no longer work (In my arrogant opinion !) but that is not solely an eu issue.
Kate. I travel too much, and have an illness making me undependable, so I would not take on the responsibility to be an admin, but I respect those who do.
Regards
John
I had a Rose tinted view of the EEC and as a youn person I could think liberally about a United Ireland, Regionalisation within UK and Europe (Catalunia anyone ? ) and even a common defense force removing the need for Nationalist Armies.
The vote was about the EU, not Europe, and I strongly oppose the progression toward powers for unelected people and the money trough that goes with it.
I also have some roots in Economics and I think that the good ol boys of a century ago also had Rose-tinted glasses. In practice, standard theories of Macroeconomics no longer work (In my arrogant opinion !) but that is not solely an eu issue.
Kate. I travel too much, and have an illness making me undependable, so I would not take on the responsibility to be an admin, but I respect those who do.
Regards
John
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Rose Tinted
I don't think the idea of the EU is entirely rose tinted . In the scheme of things it's a young organisation . It takes a long time and a lot of faith to grow a working political structure. Many of the current european states are young : Compared to the Act of Union , which might be unacted in the next few years, The First Republique seems not that long ago . A united Italy hasn't been around that long and it's not five minutes since eastern states were part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then the USSR.
Almost , perhaps, since we joined there's been the drip drip of complaints based on half truths . It isn't entirely unelected but there is a problem as to where the power lies . Given the size of the population the budget isn't that big. What has changed over time it that while it was accepted that states make a contribution according to their means which meant that the UK and other richer states paid most of the bills . This ' from each according to his means.................' is thought of as a bit to 'commie' by many voters. Those who in the past benefited form this approach are pulling up the ladder behind them.
Almost , perhaps, since we joined there's been the drip drip of complaints based on half truths . It isn't entirely unelected but there is a problem as to where the power lies . Given the size of the population the budget isn't that big. What has changed over time it that while it was accepted that states make a contribution according to their means which meant that the UK and other richer states paid most of the bills . This ' from each according to his means.................' is thought of as a bit to 'commie' by many voters. Those who in the past benefited form this approach are pulling up the ladder behind them.
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Re: Rose Tinted
One of the greatest 20C quotes is ascribed to Zhou Enlai: when asked what he thought about the impact of the French Revolution, he said that it was "too soon to tell". Regrettably, it seems that it was a confusion: he thought he was being asked about the events of 1968. Si non è vero, è ben trovato. And no time more so than now.Phip3 wrote:I don't think the idea of the EU is entirely rose tinted . In the scheme of things it's a young organisation . It takes a long time and a lot of faith to grow a working political structure. Many of the current european states are young : Compared to the Act of Union , which might be unacted in the next few years, The First Republique seems not that long ago . A united Italy hasn't been around that long and it's not five minutes since eastern states were part of the Austro-Hungarian empire and then the USSR.